82 Bridge St Vent email 2020-01-02Louis Hasbrouck <lhasbrouck@northamptonma.gov>
RE: FW: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
1 message
Kyle Young <kyley@dietzarch.com>Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 12:26 PM
To: Louis Hasbrouck <lhasbrouck@northamptonma.gov>, "Follett, Mark" <mfollett@westernbuilders.com>
Cc: "Darling, William" <wdarling@westernbuilders.com>, "Guy, Mike" <mguy@westernbuilders.com>, megan stanton <megancs@me.com>, Jonathan Flagg
<jflagg@northamptonma.gov>
Louis,
Please see the attached revise ventilation system plans that Identify chases and fire dampers where appropriate.
The approach is this. (The ERV units are on the floor of the third floor. )
Ductwork going to the first floor in the existing building is enclosed in a shaft as a home run to the first floor since it is penetrating 2 stories (floor
assemblies). with fire and smoke dampers as ductwork enters and exit the shaft.
The second floor of the existing building and the connector section is served by ducts that are 6” maximum and they penetrate one floor assembly
(the third floor) and have fire dampers as required by code for 6” ducts And do not exceed and area of 144 sq inches in a 10 sq ft area.
The third floor units in the existing and connector buildings will be served by units on the third floor and will not penetrate any floor plates.
In the addition there will be two shafts in the addition with fire smoke dampers that run from the second floor plane to the roof.
I believe this satisfies all requirements for the ducting and penetration treatment. Please review and comment
Secondly,
We were hoping to get comments on your review of the TCO plans attached as well for your comment.
Best,
Kyle YoungJob CaptainDietz & Company Architects, Inc. 55 Frank B. Murray Street, Suite 201Springfield, MA 01103
Direct: (413) 846-1013
Office: (413) 733-6798 ext. 123
www.dietzarch.com
Design that looks good, does good.
From: Louis Hasbrouck <lhasbrouck@northamptonma.gov>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2019 8:57 PM
To: Follett, Mark <mfollett@westernbuilders.com>
Cc: Darling, William <wdarling@westernbuilders.com>; Guy, Mike <mguy@westernbuilders.com>; megan stanton <megancs@me.com>; Kyle Young
<kyley@dietzarch.com>; Jonathan Flagg <jflagg@northamptonma.gov>
Subject: Re: FW: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
Mark, all
This is a complicated situation. Without going too far into the details, you are correct; 6" ducts are not allowed without at least
fire dampers or a shaft enclosure. Mr Weiss states "We have always understood the referenced code
section........717.6.1 to be specifically written for the layout, usage and protection of dryer vent exhaust risers...."
IBC 717.6.1 applies because these are certainly ducts (2105 IMC: DUCT. A tube or conduit utilized for conveying air...).
The references in 717.7.6 to hot gasses and ignition of cotton waste are not at all relevant to the ducts; they're part of the
criteria for protecting the annular space around the ducts.
Beyond that, as you noted, 717.6.1, exceptions specifically detail the criteria for duct penetrations that DO NOT require fire
dampers:
Exception: A duct is permitted to penetrate three floors or less without a fire damper at each floor, provided such duct
meets all of the following requirements:
1. The duct shall be contained and located within the cavity of a wall and shall be constructed of steel having a minimum wall
thickness of 0.0187 inches (0.4712 mm) (No. 26 gage).
2. The duct shall open into only one dwelling or sleeping unit and the duct system shall be continuous from the unit to the
exterior of the building.
3. The duct shall not exceed 4-inch (102 mm) nominal diameter and the total area of such ducts shall not exceed 100
square inches (0.065 m2) in any 100 square feet (9.3 m2) of floor area.
4. The annular space around the duct is protected with materials that prevent the passage of flame and hot gases sufficient
to ignite cotton waste where subjected to ASTM E119 or UL 263 time-temperature conditions under a minimum positive
pressure differential of 0.01 inch (2.49 Pa) of water at the location of the penetration for the time period equivalent to the fire-
resistance rating of the construction penetrated.
5. Grille openings located in a ceiling of a fire-resistance-rated floor/ceiling or roof/ceiling assembly shall be protected with a
listed ceiling radiation damper installed in accordance with Section 717.6.2.1.
The plans, as drawn, do not meet code requirements. A new design is required. I haven't reviewed code requirements
beyond the point where I'm confident that these plans do not meet code. I'm not sure if simply adding dampers will meet
code.
One other code consideration; I am not certain and don't have time now to check but I'm fairly certain that ducts of that size
will need annular space protection beyond simple fire caulk or foam.
If there is still a dispute about code requirements, this will need third party review.
Let me know if you have questions.
Louis Hasbrouck
Building Commissioner
City of Northampton
Town of Williamsburg
(413) 587-1240 office
(413) 587-1272 fax
On Thu, Dec 12, 2019 at 4:13 PM Follett, Mark <mfollett@westernbuilders.com> wrote:
Louis,
I wanted to thank you on behalf of all who were out there today. I have included all in addition to Kyle the architect who was unable to make it today.
Attached you will find the HVAC plans we were referencing today on site. Below is the engineers response we were looking at as well. Please let me
know if you need any additional information.
Mark Follett
Project Manager
Western Builders
73 Pleasant St.
Granby, MA 01033
Mobile: 413.537.1683
Office: 413.437.5071
Email: mfollett@westernbuilders.com
I will be out of the office tomorrow, so please reply to all with any questions or correspondence and we will respond quikly.
Thank you again,
Mark
From: Kyle Young <kyley@dietzarch.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2019 5:49 PM
To: Follett, Mark <mfollett@westernbuilders.com>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Fwd: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
See below
Kyle Young
Job Captain
Dietz & Company Architects, Inc.
55 Frank B. Murray Street, Suite 201
Springfield, MA 01103
(413)733-6798 ext. 123
www.dietzarch.com
Design that looks good, does good.
Begin forwarded message:
From: Tom Weiss <TWeiss@CEC-Engineering.com>
Date: December 10, 2019 at 5:40:42 PM EST
To: Kyle Young <kyley@dietzarch.com>, Katherine Stellato <kstellato@cec-engineering.com>, Mike Peterson <MPeterson@cec-
engineering.com>
Cc: Kerry Dietz <kerryd@dietzarch.com>, Steven Costa <scosta@cec-engineering.com>
Subject: RE: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
Hi Kyle,
We wanted to get you an updated answer for your upcoming meeting tomorrow:
1. We have always understood the referenced code section in your e-mail below 717.6.1 to be specifically written for the layout, usage
and protection of dryer vent exhaust risers – especially in multi-level mixed-use and residential buildings…specifically related to
installation in the cavity of a wall (up to three stories of travel), the 4” specific referenced dimension, and the reference to the conveyance
of “hot gases” and the potential for the ignition of cotton wastes.
2. We feel our drawing submission (including the ventilation system scope addition) is code compliant based on the intended
application of the ERV ducts (being low temperature and non-particle laden relative to dryer vents) and based on IBC sections 712.1.2
(Individual Dwelling Unit), 712.1.9 (Two Story Openings), 717.1.2 (Ducts that Penetrate Fire-Resistance-Rated Assemblies Without
Dampers, 714.4.1 (Through Penetrations), NFPA 90-A (Where and When ducts require fire dampers), and where the IBC defines the
need for 1 and/or 2-HR rated shaft wall assemblies – based on three (3) and four (4) minimum stories of travel.
3. We believe that due to the floors being penetrated/traversed in each of two different “pass-through” locations in the dwelling units as
shown on our drawings (not in 2-Hr Shafts), combined with the 1-rating for the duct itself, and the specified radiation dampers in the wall
and ceiling assemblies at grilles/registers/diffusers, that we are code complaint….while trying to be cost conscious for the ventilation
scope picked up in the latest revision/addendum.
We always try to provide a value-added, cost conscious and code-compliant design service – based on our understanding of an end
user’s budget, and our best understanding of industry standard applications, relative to required building codes….however, we are not
registered as or set up in our business model to offer the expertise of code consulting as a fee-related service, and understand that folks’
opinions of code understanding and interpretations can be different.
What I would say is that we believe that our submission as forwarded is code compliant – based on our best understanding of industry
standard practice, and if someone feels that more fire damper scope should be added in different locations on the project, it would be
outside of our understanding of the code implications – relative to this application.
Talk soon,
-Tom
Thomas P. Weiss, PE, MBA, LEED AP | Principal and Mechanical Department Head
Creative Environment Corp., a subsidiary of Thielsch Engineering Inc.
195 Frances Avenue, Building 2 | Cranston, RI 02910 | p: 401.438.7733 x 3189| c: 401-479-1117
Tweiss@cec-engineering.com | www.cec-engineering.com |
From: Kyle Young [mailto:kyley@dietzarch.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2019 3:06 PM
To: Katherine Stellato <kstellato@cec-engineering.com>; Mike Peterson <MPeterson@cec-engineering.com>; Tom Weiss
<TWeiss@CEC-Engineering.com>
Cc: Kerry Dietz <kerryd@dietzarch.com>
Subject: RE: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
Importance: High
Mike & Tom,
In regards the submitted FRFI 24 for the ventilation system we have had further conversation regarding the penetrations through the
horizontally rated floor assemblies as the ducts travel up in the existing building for the revised ventilation system
It is our understanding that in the IBC section 717.6 highlighted below that we do not meet all the exceptions to comply with no using fire
dampers at these locations. The duct penetrations are 6” in most cases ( although there are some 4”s) and we feel the code read that
either there needs to be a rated shaft or dampers at the floor to comply.
717.6 Horizontal Assemblies
Penetrations by ducts and air transfer openings of a floor, floor/ceiling assembly or the ceiling membrane of a roof/ceiling assembly shall
be protected by a shaft enclosure that complies with Section 713 or shall comply with Sections 717.6.1 through 717.6.3.
717.6.1 Through Penetrations
In occupancies other than Groups I-2 and I-3, a duct constructed of approved materials in accordance with the International Mechanical
Code that penetrates a fire-resistance-rated floor/ceiling assembly that connects not more than two stories is permitted without shaft
enclosure protection, provided a listed fire damper is installed at the floor line or the duct is protected in accordance with Section714.4. For air transfer openings, see Section 712.1.9.
Exception: A duct is permitted to penetrate three floors or less without a fire damper at each floor, provided such duct meets all of the
following requirements:
1. The duct shall be contained and located within the cavity of a wall and shall be constructed of steel having aminimum wall thickness of 0.0187 inches (0.4712 mm) (No. 26 gage).
2. The duct shall open into only one dwelling or sleeping unit and the duct system shall be continuous from the unit to the exterior
of the building.
3. The duct shall not exceed 4-inch (102 mm) nominal diameter and the total area of such ducts shall not exceed 100 square
inches (0.065 m2) in any 100 square feet (9.3 m2) of floor area.
4. The annular space around the duct is protected with materials that prevent the passage of flame and hot gases sufficient to
ignite cotton waste where subjected to ASTM E119 or UL 263 time-temperature conditions under a minimum positive pressure
differential of 0.01 inch (2.49 Pa) of water at the location of the penetration for the time period equivalent to the fire-resistance
rating of the construction penetrated.
5. Grille openings located in a ceiling of a fire-resistance-rated floor/ceiling or roof/ceiling assembly shall be protected with
a listed ceiling radiation damper installed in accordance with Section 717.6.2.1.
I believe that the addition penetrations are covered but the penetrations in the connector and existing building portions that are 6” through
the floor are not compliant with this section.
Please respond promptly PREFERABLY BEFORE TOMORROWS MEETING AT 2PM (WED) as we need direction for the sub in order
to complete work on time.
Best,
Kyle Young
Job Captain
Dietz & Company Architects, Inc.
55 Frank B. Murray Street, Suite 201
Springfield, MA 01103
Direct: (413) 846-1013
Office: (413) 733-6798 ext. 123
www.dietzarch.com
Design that looks good, does good.
From: Katherine Stellato <kstellato@cec-engineering.com>
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 5:31 PM
To: Kyle Young <kyley@dietzarch.com>
Subject: RE: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
You can submit what I wrote for RFI-24.
Thanks,
Katherine Stellato | HVAC Designer | CEC | p: 401.438.7733 | c: 508.742.5008 | LinkedIn
From: Kyle Young [mailto:kyley@dietzarch.com]
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 5:29 PM
To: Katherine Stellato <kstellato@cec-engineering.com>
Subject: RE: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
Katherine are you modifying your response? Or are we ok to go with what you have submitted?
Kyle YoungJob CaptainDietz & Company Architects, Inc. 55 Frank B. Murray Street, Suite 201
Springfield, MA 01103
Direct: (413) 846-1013
Office: (413) 733-6798 ext. 123
www.dietzarch.com
Design that looks good, does good.
From: Katherine Stellato <kstellato@cec-engineering.com>
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 5:14 PM
To: Kyle Young <kyley@dietzarch.com>
Subject: RE: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
Thank you so much for that clarification!
Katherine Stellato | HVAC Designer | CEC | p: 401.438.7733 | c: 508.742.5008 | LinkedIn
From: Kyle Young [mailto:kyley@dietzarch.com]
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 5:11 PM
To: Katherine Stellato <kstellato@cec-engineering.com>
Subject: RE: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
It is not required at those location the assemblies, thank you for your comment they were intended to be removed in the revision. I will
revise this sheet to reflect those changes.
Kyle Young
Job Captain
Dietz & Company Architects, Inc.
55 Frank B. Murray Street, Suite 201
Springfield, MA 01103
Direct: (413) 846-1013
Office: (413) 733-6798 ext. 123
www.dietzarch.com
Design that looks good, does good.
From: Katherine Stellato <kstellato@cec-engineering.com> Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 4:45 PMTo: Kyle Young <kyley@dietzarch.com>; Tom Weiss <TWeiss@CEC-Engineering.com>; Mike Peterson <MPeterson@cec-engineering.com>Subject: RE: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
Thanks Kyle,
The part I’m not understanding is why the laundry, office, janitor, and bathroom require a smoke barrier from the corridor.
Katherine Stellato | HVAC Designer | CEC | p: 401.438.7733 | c: 508.742.5008 | LinkedIn
From: Kyle Young [mailto:kyley@dietzarch.com]
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 4:26 PM
To: Katherine Stellato <kstellato@cec-engineering.com>; Tom Weiss <TWeiss@CEC-Engineering.com>; Mike Peterson
<MPeterson@cec-engineering.com>
Subject: RE: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
Katherine,
Thank you for your question, this code sheet has been revised. Please see the attached. Hopefully this helps clarify. The intent of the
separations.
Kyle Young
Job Captain
Dietz & Company Architects, Inc.
55 Frank B. Murray Street, Suite 201
Springfield, MA 01103Direct: (413) 846-1013Office: (413) 733-6798 ext. 123 www.dietzarch.com
Design that looks good, does good.
From: Katherine Stellato <kstellato@cec-engineering.com>
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 3:45 PM
To: Tom Weiss <TWeiss@CEC-Engineering.com>; Kyle Young <kyley@dietzarch.com>; Mike Peterson <MPeterson@cec-
engineering.com>
Subject: RE: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
Hi Kyle,
I have attached our RFI-24 response.
In reviewing the fire rated walls I noticed that there are a smoke partition walls surrounding the office, janitors room, and bathroom. I was
wondering why the smoke partitions are required; and if we could have it surrounding just the office space, and not the janitors room and
bathroom? Please see the attached sketch for reference.
Please let me know if you have any questions, or need anything else.
Thank you,
Katherine Stellato | HVAC Designer | CEC | p: 401.438.7733 | c: 508.742.5008 | LinkedIn
From: Tom Weiss
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 1:19 PM
To: Kyle Young <kyley@dietzarch.com>; Mike Peterson <MPeterson@cec-engineering.com>
Cc: Stacy Sousa <ssousa@cec-engineering.com>; Katherine Stellato <kstellato@cec-engineering.com>
Subject: RE: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
Hi Kyle,
I’ll try and move this along to get our formal answer out to you this afternoon, as I know our team has looked at the questions and the
smoke/fire rating plans that we have on file from your office, and I don’t believe that we will be adding any life safety devices as I’m pretty
sure that what we feel is necessary is already owned in the documents….let me follow up.
-Tom
Thomas P. Weiss, PE, MBA, LEED AP | Principal and Mechanical Department Head
Creative Environment Corp., a subsidiary of Thielsch Engineering Inc.
195 Frances Avenue, Building 2 | Cranston, RI 02910 | p: 401.438.7733 x 3189|
Tweiss@cec-engineering.com | www.cec-engineering.com |
From: Kyle Young [mailto:kyley@dietzarch.com]
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 12:29 PM
To: Mike Peterson <MPeterson@cec-engineering.com>; Tom Weiss <TWeiss@CEC-Engineering.com>
Cc: Stacy Sousa <ssousa@cec-engineering.com>
Subject: RE: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
Team,
Can you please respond officially today? See below
Thank you
Kyle YoungJob CaptainDietz & Company Architects, Inc. 55 Frank B. Murray Street, Suite 201
Springfield, MA 01103
Direct: (413) 846-1013
Office: (413) 733-6798 ext. 123
www.dietzarch.com
Design that looks good, does good.
From: Kyle Young Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 11:09 AMTo: 'Mike Peterson' <MPeterson@cec-engineering.com>; 'Tom Weiss' <TWeiss@CEC-Engineering.com>Cc: 'Stacy Sousa' <ssousa@cec-engineering.com>Subject: RE: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
Mike,
We are on Hold in construction waiting for a response for this item. And other electrical RFI questions I previously sent.
Kyle Young
Job Captain
Dietz & Company Architects, Inc.
55 Frank B. Murray Street, Suite 201
Springfield, MA 01103
Direct: (413) 846-1013
Office: (413) 733-6798 ext. 123
www.dietzarch.com
Design that looks good, does good.
From: Kyle Young
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 12:58 PM
To: Mike Peterson <MPeterson@cec-engineering.com>; Tom Weiss <TWeiss@CEC-Engineering.com>
Cc: Stacy Sousa <ssousa@cec-engineering.com>
Subject: 21611 Sergant House | FRFI 24 Ventilation System Fire dampers
Mike ,
I believe we had this conversation in design but can you please formally respond for the record for the GC. The question is regarding fire
dampers in the duct work while passing through rated assemblies. Am I correct that penetrations 6” or less are exempt from fire dampers
and that the design documents incorporate all required dampers.
FRFI – 24
Asked By:Mark Follett (Western Builders Inc.)
Date:Tue Nov 19, 2019 at 11:35 am EST
Question:
Kyle no separation is showing between the rooms/floors.
We recommend Fire/Smoke Dampers. Please advise.
Dampers will need to be shown with access panels if this
option is desired.
Please confirm no rated wrap is required on the ducting
as well.
Thanks
Kyle Young
Job Captain
Dietz & Company Architects, Inc.
55 Frank B. Murray Street, Suite 201
Springfield, MA 01103
Direct: (413) 846-1013
Office: (413) 733-6798 ext. 123
www.dietzarch.com
Design that looks good, does good.
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2 attachments
PR-012R2 Revised Ventilation 2020-01-08.pdf
2657K
2019-12-20_Temporary Certificate of Occupancy.pdf
15998K